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03/08/2006: "The Gospel according to PK -- Will a Loving God Let You Go To Hell?"

This is a particularly lengthy excerpt from a discussion in MNID which involved several people, but for this part was mainly between Fred and PK. Fred, it appears, believes that everybody will eventually be redeemed and go to Heaven. PK seems to believe that only those who "walk with God" in this life will go to Heaven. They both seem to think the alternative to going to Heaven is ending up in Hell......





FRED
How can it be just to give someone an infinite punishment for a finite amount of error? That's not justice. Worse, there is no lesson taught by the punishment -- the sentence is forever, right? -- so it is strictly vindictive. God isn't vindictive.


PK
Some people claim you can serve time paying off your sins. Get some of the saints to share some of their excess grace with you, and get living people to pray for you, do good deeds in your name, and light candles to help speed you on your way.

But in that case, there is no reason to be obedient to God because eventually you will end up with Him anyway, happy and loving and loved.

Thing is, there is life and death, and if you choose death, you can't change your mind later and select life.

You choose. Now, what happens at the last millisecond of life as the eyes close has been an item of supposition for many, which has led some to believe the individual is asked one last time if they will choose to believe..... but if somebody believes that way, why not accept the way of life and get it over with instead of waiting?

To answer more directly, the choice is not a finite amount of error deserving a finite amount of punishment; rather it is a choice between one option and the other. It isn't how much illicit sex you had, how much you stole, how many lies you told; it's did you or did you not allow God to indwell you and guide you? were you obedient to Him?

FRED
If it is a choice, it isn't justice. Justice is reward for doing good and punishment for doing bad.

PK
Living eternally with Jesus is a choice. It is entirely up to you!


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PK
Sometimes a father will do all he can possibly do, and his child is still lost to him.

FRED
That wouldn't be possible for an omnipotent father.

PK
There is still free choice. God does not force people to believe in Him.

FRED
Where does it say in the Bible that humans have free choice?

PK
Geez, without looking or even thinking I can say that God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet they did. It was their choice. I don't really understand where your question is coming from or trying to go?

Are you implying that, for instance, in the case of Noah, that God forced Noah to build the ark? He had no choice except to build it? and those who did not heed the call: they were forced not to listen? It was not their choice to ignore and/or shun Noah warning them for those many years?

Over and over again God showed his love for His people, and over and over again some responded and many refused. This indicates to me they had a choice to make and did so.


FRED
I'm not saying human lack free will. I'm just asking how you reach a theological position of knowing humans have free will. The question is very subtle if you take it seriously.

Maybe Noah had no choice in it. After all, the story certainly implies it was the end of the line for everyone else.

If God had wanted some to listen, don't you think it would have happened?


PK
From what you seem to be saying here, I infer that you believe God controls people's responses to situations, that everybody acts according to how God told them to, that He makes them deny His will, and since He does that, He will also make them choose Him in the end.

I do not gather any of that from reading the Bible or from my experience or from any observations I have ever made. I have heard tell of some cults that believe that predestination means exactly that, but all I have read or known is that God made a place for each person in His family, and He desires them to come to know Him and be obedient to Him. Some will, some will not. He stands at the door and knocks, you must open the door to let Him in. When people couldn't understand or believe the prophets, He came to earth as a visible representation, then became the sacrifice to atone (make you at one with Him), and people would not believe their eyes or accept Him. Then He began to indwell (send the Holy Spirit) those who would seek to know Him more, yet some will reject the Spirit and choose to try to live out the laws on their own.

He has done more than enough to allow men to see and choose Him. It is their choice, then to turn to or away from Him. Many Christians feel it is their duty to help God reach the people who won't choose Him on their own. Many pray that God will spend more time trying to draw people they love or care about, revealing Himself more clearly, more emphatically, more dramatically, so they can see Him. Sometimes that involves bringing a person very much to their knees, breaking them so the only place they have to turn is God, much like JJ's reference to "no atheists in foxholes".

I also know that some people, although they have experienced the peace and joy of walking with God, can be lured away from him with temporary earthly rewards, or with drugs that confuse the soul and mind.


FRED
Here is what I believe.

God has no plan B. He is, by definition, omnipotent and omniscient, so he makes everything turn out as his will desires in all cases. He possesses the insight and power to insure that all takes place according to his desire.

What humans call free will is just the sense that we are not constrained in our choices. I'd also note that free will and choice are dependent upon a *lack* of information about the future. If you really knew how each choice would turn out, you wouldn't possess free will at all.



PK
Do you believe that with an unchangeable mind? If so, I suppose it isn't really a harmful position to take, although I think it makes man mere puppets of God if it were true. It would make it like somebody dumping out his toybox, playing with the toys, then putting them all back in at the end of the day. It kinda takes the joy out of living. I'd almost rather there be no God. I think, too, that God would almost rather there be no man in that scenario. How much more joy in someone choosing to love you, than having no choice at all.

How much more joy in having a father who allows you to respond to His love rather than forcing you to do so. Knowing that you could live any other way, but choosing to take the path of walking with Him.


FRED
Then you cannot say that God is in control of the world, or even in control of any individual soul. I find that problematic in the extreme.


PK
God is in control.... yet he allows nature to take its course, and has set consequences for various actions. Think of gravity. Think of if you fall in water, you get wet. Think of not dressing for the cold and frostbite.... not covering for the sun and sunburn.... He doesn't make you go outside unprepared then send evil consequences, it is the same for all people... well, to varying degrees according to personal tolerance.

God will, however, intervene when called upon or to achieve desired ends. I recall at some time in the past hearing an opinion that he kinda watches creation for a while, then stirs stuff up just enough to make it interesting again. I thought it was kinda funny to hear, and it is sort of an irreverent humor at that, but....


FRED
You might read this, too:

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/barclay1.html


PK
----> Quoted: **** First, there is the fact that there are things in the New Testament which more than justify this belief. Jesus said: "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself" (John 12:32). Paul writes to the Romans: "God has consigned all men to disobedience that he may have mercy on all" (Rom. 11:32). He writes to the Corinthians: "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22); and he looks to the final total triumph when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:28). In the First Letter to Timothy we read of God "who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth," and of Christ Jesus "who gave himself as a ransom for all" (1 Tim 2:4-6). The New Testament itself is not in the least afraid of the word all. **** End Quote <----

"I will draw all men" --- gentiles as well as Jews... it was previously asserted that only Jews were chosen by God. Jesus opened the door to all men, not just Jews. Your use of "all" is misconstrued the same as the use of "men" instead of people.

"in Christ shall all be made alive" --- key word here, they must be "in" Christ.... not outside of Him, living in their own power and resources.


I Cor. 15:28.. "And when all things shall be subdued unto him," --- Seems this is addressing all things acknowledging Him as God (even the devil knows who God is)

"then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under, him, that God may be all in all," --- seems the personality of Jesus is no longer distinct, though again I must resort to disclaimer of non-theologian.

The other two quotes speak of God who desires and makes it possible for all to be His children, if they so desire to make that choice.


----> Quoted: **** Second, one of the key passages is Matthew 25:46 where it is said that the rejected go away to eternal punishment, and the righteous to eternal life...... The word for eternal is aionios. It means more than everlasting, for Plato - who may have invented the word - plainly says that a thing may be everlasting and still not be aionios. The simplest way to out it is that aionios cannot be used properly of anyone but God; it is the word uniquely, as Plato saw it, of God. Eternal punishment is then literally that kind of remedial punishment which it befits God to give and which only God can give. **** End Quote <----

The same word is used to express the duration of the punishment, as is used to express the duration of the state of glory. The word used for eternal means perpetual, always was, always will be.... The punishment will last as long as the reward.... and yes, it can only be said of God, because only He always was, always will be....


---->Quoted: **** Third, I believe that it is impossible to set limits to the grace of God. I believe that not only in this world, but in any other world there may be, the grace of God is still effective, still operative, still at work. I do not believe that the operation of the grace of God is limited to this world. I believe that the grace of God is as wide as the universe.
**** End Quote <----

Simply his opinion, but if so, it still behooves the individual to respond to the call. If away from the presence of God, in eternal punishment, there is no longer an opportunity to respond.


----> Quoted: **** Fourth, I believe implicitly in the ultimate and complete triumph of God, the time when all things will be subject to him, and when God will be everything to everyone (1 Cor. 15:24-28). For me this has certain consequences. If one man remains outside the love of God at the end of time, it means that that one man has defeated the love of God - and that is impossible. Further, "[T]here is only one way in which we can think of the triumph of God. If God was no more than a King or Judge, then it would be possible to speak of his triumph, if his enemies were agonizing in hell or were totally and completely obliterated and wiped out. But God is not only King and Judge, God is Father - he is indeed Father more than anything else. No father could be happy while there were members of his family for ever in agony. No father would count it a triumph to obliterate the disobedient members of his family. The only triumph a father can know is to have all his family back home. The only victory love can enjoy is the day when its offer of love is answered by the return of love. The only possible final triumph is a universe loved by and in love with God."
**** End Quote <----


This is the same passage where all earthly kingdoms are subject to Christ.... it doesn't say they all worship Him....

I see victory in 1 John 5:4,5 "For all that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world; and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith. Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?" Once again it demands response, faith, of each individual.

If victory is OVER something, hmmmm... what might it be over?

...and again, we are adopted children of God--Jesus is His only begotten Son--but only when we choose to be His children, allowing Him to adopt us..