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12/04/2001 Archived Entry: "Chickens 3"

third installment of pk and the chickens.......

Note: pk's original comments are prefaced with : > >
Chickens' responses are prefaced with : >
pk's bounce back have no preface.

---snip-----
: > I do not believe that other humans are capable of witnessing religious
: > experiences for one another, and therefore discount all testimony as
: > probably corrupted data.
: >

Granted, my words cannot adequately define or explain ANYTHING to
anybody else in a way to convey exactly what I mean. How you read or
hear my words is colored not only by my reference point but by yours.

: > >simply because it seems it "cannot be true."
: >
: > That's why it cannot be true.
: >

What is truth????????

: > >A person can not explain a personal experience to another without
: > >subjecting it to interpretation and misunderstanding.
: >
: > I agree with that. Therefore the Bible is wrong. The Koran is wrong.
: > The Tao Te Ching is wrong.
: >

Wrong is the wrong word.

: > >Each person
: > >interprets/understands from his own vantage point through prior
: > >experience and current needs.
: >
: > Yes!
: >
: > >This does not negate the reality of the experience.
: >
: > In fact, it totally negates the reality of another's experience for
: > any other person. It makes all testimony more than suspect. All
: > writings and spoken words that speculate beyond the knowable are
: > worthless gibberish.
: >

Doesn't negate the reality for the person who experienced it, and may
validate that experience for somebody else who had the same or
similar--compare to health problems. My tachycardia was normal until
Dad found out his was not. Mom had no clue what we were talking
about, and only vaguely understands hearing the heartbeat, feeling the
heartbeat, and what 260 beats per minute for a sustained period means
and how it affects a person.

: > >That would be like a blind man saying the sky nor the top of a tree
: > >nor lightning nor a flying eagle exist because he cannot see them
: >
: > A classical logical fallacy used by the religious. You twisted it so
: > it is backwards from the actual analogy. More correctly: Religion is
: > the equivalent of a blind man telling others what color everything is,
: > how tall things are, and how beautiful the sunset is.
: >

You da backwards chicken---I am not telling you about something you
have experienced which I have not, but you are trying to tell me what
I have experienced is false.

snip---

: >
: > Religious belief is not bad unto itself.
: >
: > Christianity and other testimonies as to the structure of the
: > afterlife, the wants and needs of the supposed super being, and the
: > other data that supposedly come from unperceivable existence beyond
: > our senses - these are the things described by blind and deaf men for
: > other blind and deaf men. And that's what's wrong with the testimony.
: > That's what's wrong with organized religions.
: >

me too. Couldn't agree more.

: > >Although I have been inundated with and subjected to the ideas and
: > >doctrine of many "religions" and religious "systems", I do not accept
: > >without question what I am told, nor do I expect anybody else to do
: > >so. Any of my "beliefs" are simply a response to the personal
: > >experiences in my life.
: >
: > Then you cannot include things such as the holiness of Jesus Christ in
: > your belief system - otherwise the above is untrue. By adopting
: > Christianity, you, by default, have decided to accept unexperienced
: > testimony of other people for your beliefs - the very antithesis of
: > your response to me.
: >

I can include anything I choose to include. It is MY belief and what
works for ME and gives ME strength, hope, sustenance.

: > >My understandings and expectations are, of
: > >course, influenced by others' words, but my daily growth is evident of
: > >the highly personal nature of the creator/sustainer's walk with me.
: >
: > One of my relatives used to take walks with people we couldn't see. We
: > got him medication.
: >

Silly chicken.

: > >I'm sure if people could understand infinity and encountered it
: > >frequently, they would have better words to convey the message of
: > >who/what they have encountered.
: >
: > I don't think a finite being could ever do so, and I think if they
: > could, it would most likely be irrelevant, though I couldn't possibly
: > know.
: >

Agreed we can't, but if they COULD....

: > >Intelligence is not a prerequisite to divine revelation.
: >
: > A Christian belief.
: >
: > I hold that intelligence is *the* prerequisite for divine revalation.
: > Revealing truths through vague messages to dumb people who are likely
: > to misinterpret because they lack the experience, education, and IQ is
: > not good project management - and I expect the supreme being to do
: > better than I could.
: >

There is a shortage of people as smart as you are. Gotta have
messengers for everybody.

: > >John 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not
: > >understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what
: > >we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do
: > >not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things
: > >and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of
: > >heavenly things?
: >
: > Sounds like whining. "You won't believe in me. How can I have power
: > over you if you won't accept my inherent authority as a virgin-born
: > (ahem) baby with super powers who wasted the first 30 years of his
: > life?
: >

Okay, my restatement: the intelligent dude wanted Jesus to tell him
some of what he knew about God and other spiritual things. The dude
wouldn't even believe when he was told about healing of the sick
(anybody you know?) or other manifestations of power that people had
witnessed, so why should Jesus take the time to explain things that
can't be seen?

: > >Very true. All you have to go on is the evidence of growth in that
: > >person to verify his experience, and your own personal
: > >experience/revelation, when you are open to it and ready.
: >
: > No - all I have to go on is my own experiences filtered through my
: > pathetically finite and human mind. I therefore ignore anything that
: > others cannot verify for me. If I hear God's voice, and no one else
: > does, I am not hearing God's voice, but a manifestation that I am
: > responsible for.
: >

You doubt yourself because somebody else doesn't/won't corroborate
your feelings, experiences? You feel a pain in your gut, nobody else
can feel it, so it isn't really there? You love somebody, but nobody
else can corroborate that for you, so it isn't true? You heard a loud
noise and it frightened you, but nobody else heard it, so you didn't
really hear it and/or you weren't really frightened.

: > But let's suppose for just a moment that the voice I hear in my head
: > is not my own. Only a fool would assume that the voice is God's
: > because it says so. It could be the devil. It could be your telepathic
: > neighbor.
: >

Hearing voices is not what it's about.

: > That's why religion is so dumb. Abraham hears voices that tell him to
: > kill his son. Then strange beings appear and say stop. Why didn't the
: > voice say stop? Moses talked to a bush, for God's sake. If I had a
: > conversation with a burning bush, should I come away thinking that I
: > met God? That's insane! There's no evidence of *who* or *what* it was.
: >

The fruit proves the type of tree/vine.

Chickens, you and I have one big thing in common: the (unnamed sects
and cults) who not only believe that their group is the only way to
believe, but try to push that off on other people.

You and I have said the same thing: What I believe is what I believe
and what you believe is what you believe. If we each had the same
experience, it would affects us differently.

When your son was born, there was an awesome love when you first saw
him. Same with me, but you and I will not describe it in the same
way, nor did it likely affect us in the same way, yet there is a
similarity in the experience that can be shared and celebrated.

Church, for me, affords the opportunity to be with people who share in
some way the experiences I have had. There is comfort and renewal in
the validation of myself in the sharing with others.

So, going to a previous paragraph, others DO verify for me the reality
of God and his power and strength in my life.

Thank you so very much for helping me realize and almost be able to
put into words why I look forward to Sunday mornings.

--

PK

There are two kinds of people in the world:
those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good morning, Lord,"
and those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good Lord, it's morning."