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12/07/2001 Archived Entry: "Chickens five"

Are we getting anywhere with the chickens?????? ....................

Chickens comments prefaced with : >
PK responses have no preface

: > I would accept your testimony as to a car accident. And if a bright
: > light tells you to worship cheese burgers, I'll eventually believe you
: > saw it if you insist enough and convince me you aren't just jerking my
: > chain. But if you then attempt to interpret who the light was and what
: > it means, then you are out of your depth since you are not capable of
: > doing so.

If I try to understand, and my interpretation matches one you (or
anyone else) had independently derived from a similar experience, as
did others..... if it is a way of expressing and sharing and
understanding one another, and if in addition I continue to study and
probe and grow in knowledge, if it is a quest, not an answer, then it
behooves me to continue in that quest.

I understand and agree that I don't just interpret a specific and hold
to it without testing it, but you cannot expect me to keep such an
experience quiet. It is too powerful not to share and to try to find
meaning from and to hope that it is shared by others and perhaps they
have found meaning that will add to my understanding.

: > No, "wrong" is dead on. Any output not processed from input is wrong.
: >

It is only wrong when somebody insists it is the absolute and only and
untamperable truth, disregarding the human factor, human
interpretations and language to language translations, as well as
cultural differences that would affect perception of the explanations.

: > What you experience directly must be dealt with
: > internally by you. However, I seriously, seriously doubt you have had
: > a life experience that directly speaks to Jesus being the only path to
: > God and the alternative being descent into hell. Especially since all
: > these beliefs stem from the one line "I am the light, I am the way"
: > verse from one book in the Bible.
: >

There are both restrictive, HIGHLY restrictive interpretations of

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth
and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV
Copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights
Reserved

as well as generic or global interpretations.

: > I suffer from PAT as well.
: >

Ever try to explain it to somebody who doesn't?

: > No, I'm not trying to tell you anything about what you have
: > experienced at all. I'm simply stating that you can only witness what
: > you see and hear and touch and taste. You are not capable of then
: > "interpreting" those events using descriptions of things beyond your
: > own reasoning and knowledge.
: >

Can you see or hear or touch or taste your love for your son or wife?
Can you see or hear or touch or taste fear? or power? or illness? or
health? How do you know what fear or love or power or health or
illness are? How dare you interpret these things or try to explain
them to anybody? You are not capable of interpreting those events
using descriptions of things beyond your own reasoning and knowledge.
It doesn't matter if a hundred people can identify with those
experiences because they use their own point of reference and
inadequacies to arrive at their interpretations as well.

: > I just don't believe that another human alive
: > today can say "God likes it when you..." or "There is a hell and I
: > know who's going..." or "God is blue."
: >

I didn't know God is blue! Wow, you learn something every day! But
you are correct. It is not our place to judge. I am thinking of the
church position on homosexuality, particularly individual positions:

Given the church position that there is a God, that He moves in a
person's life to effect spiritual growth, then if a particular sect or
indivicual believes homosexuality is a sin, then it follows that the
homosexual should be welcome in church so that God can speak to
him/her and effect a change.

If a particular sect or individual believes homosexuality is not a
sin, then it is a natural occurence by God's design, and the
homosexual should be welcome in church.

Regardless, it is not the place of any individual or sect to exclude
or judge another.

: > You seem to be attempting to turn this into a discussion of personal
: > freedom and liberty. You are free to believe what you like. However,
: > some beliefs are unreasonable given that no human could have known
: > them, and there is no other source for such knowledge other than
: > personal experience, and it is impossible that you or I, were either
: > of us to experience the supernatural, could interpret that experience
: > properly and rule out other possibilities other than "divine" ones.
: >

Yes, personal freedom and liberty!!!!! Some beliefs are unreasonable,
but a person is free to believe them nevertheless. A person or entity
is NOT, however, free to impose THEIR beliefs as ultimate truth on
anybody else.

: > No, I don't believe that we know that "IT" wishes to send messages. It
: > is entirely possible that such messages come from somewhere else and
: > simply have IT's return address - but are really confusing
: > supernatural spam. It could be that revelations of the world beyond
: > our knowing would ruin our experience of this one.
: >

Again I say, the fruit is proof of the vine/tree.

: > Let me ask you this: If I levitate and heal the sick, will you believe
: > everything I say know matter what anyone else says? That's what you do
: > when you believe the gospel. You are letting someone's personal
: > abilities as witnessed stand as evidence of things they are not
: > relevant to.
: >

You will get my attention if you do marvelous things, but I will
challenge you and try to figure you out the same as I do David
Copperfield. Experiences of those who have gone before me are only
pointers to the same things that happen today and in my life.

: > No. I doubt my own interpretations of things I witness which I have no
: > capability to know. If I have a headache, I believe it is real. If I
: > see a ghost, I believe I saw something, but I am quick to avoid
: > attempting to explain the mechanism behind what I saw and the meaning
: > of it.
: >

Heh! you said ghost!!!! You believe your headache and your vision
were truly experienced, huh? Prove it to me. I won't believe it
until I see proof.

: > Together, you celebrate the ignorant practice of attempting to define
: > and explain experiences that you did not have directly without the
: > knowledge to do so. Together, you support one another against any
: > logical debate that might change your minds and create an unsettled
: > and uncomfortable feeling of The Unknown, the enemy of those who
: > embrace religion.
: >

Together we celebrate experience which we did have individually that
are similar in nature and outcome to each others'. There is no
opposition to logical debate, but thing is, somethings aren't
debatable. What would you gain by debating the color of the sky, the
taste of chocolate, the love of your son, the warmth of the sun on
your skin?

Debate about the specifics and facts is always welcome, although the
outcome does not change the precipitating circumstance.

: > An intellectual tragedy. An emotional cocoon.

Marrying the woman you love is the same type of cocoon...

--

PK

There are two kinds of people in the world:
those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good morning, Lord,"
and those who wake up in the morning and say, "Good Lord, it's morning."